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(01-25-2016, 11:18 PM)Hammertime Wrote: [ -> ]Ants. Its not that the the theories are dumb, its just that they are old, and all used up. They dont work. and at one time they may have been remarkable decisions, they are now just old information. Trying make a circle fit into a square is dumb, and if you keep using the same technique trying to fit that circle into the square, it makes you look dumb.

Once you understand everything that you know, then you will understand what I am saying. I wont judge, but I will try to nudge. I wont be able to help you if you dont except that it is okay to learn something knew

Hammertime,
I'd really appreciate it if you'd move your discussion to the other thread titled "Treasure Hunter Missing" - where all discussions about Randy's disappearance would be fair game. I started this thread specifically for ideas for the Search and Rescue. Please and thank you!
(01-25-2016, 11:17 PM)JulieLp12 Wrote: [ -> ]@admin thanks for following up about the t-shirt and all the coordination you are doing. It helps quite a bit to see updates in one spot.

The dashed line on Randy's topo map was pointing from the east side to the falls. Maybe he planned to walk that line to get photos into the falls and look for ways to hike in. I am probably repeating what others have said...

I think I read somewhere that Forrest hid the treasure in 2010, which was before the Las Conchas Fire which burned mostly in July 2011, then the floods hit later August through fall 2011 and 2012 and 2013. Bandelier was closed for awhile, I don't remember how long. Then opened certain areas a bit at a time. The Visitor Center had a lot of flooding too. The Frijoles Trail was washed out at the falls. If there was a treasure there it might have scattered down into the Rio Grande during all the flooding.

But Forrest said it's not there, it's not north of Santa Fe.

But maybe Randy is. Or maybe it was another recon mission and he still planned to take more photos from the east side, maybe from lower down before return to the car. Maybe he realized when he got there it was overcast, bad for photos, and Frijoles Canyon is in the shade in the afternoon, so wait until morning, then maybe just got too cold.

Did anyone searching on the east rim take any photos into Frijoles Canyon? Or anyone searching on the west rim take photos of the east rim?

He said it was at least 8.25 miles north of Santa Fe; actually he said "66,000 Links". But I'm sure you didn't mean NOT, right.

Anywho, .....I'll take a bunch of pictures tomorrow of the east canyon and the west. I'm going to go to the west side off of SR4 and to either DOE gate 2 or 4 and hike the entire Ancho Canyon. I'd actually like to hike over to Chaquehui Canyon and make a loop over to Ancho, but I'll probably do that another time. As it is that will be 4-5 miles. Chaquehui Canyon, if passable, which is the next canyon up from Frijoles Canyon, will take you all the way to the gate entrance at Bandelier.

I'm just concerned that if he left his hiking boots, unless he brought another pair with him on the rafting trip, then he was most likely going to try walking the river and the bank back up, instead of hiking out, which would nullify these canyons, unless he changed his mind and decided to take one. That and he bought a wet suit and waders. Sounds like he planned on walking the river back to his car. But gotta eliminate them, since he we haven't found him yet. He could have easily went up one though. I was hoping to hear from JB.
(01-25-2016, 11:11 PM)Ants Wrote: [ -> ]These are all great ideas

Not for me. I don't drink whiskey of any kind. I only drink tequila, if it is in a Margarita, rum, vodka concoctions, or wine.
(01-26-2016, 12:21 AM)Project Why Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-25-2016, 11:17 PM)JulieLp12 Wrote: [ -> ]@admin thanks for following up about the t-shirt and all the coordination you are doing. It helps quite a bit to see updates in one spot.

The dashed line on Randy's topo map was pointing from the east side to the falls. Maybe he planned to walk that line to get photos into the falls and look for ways to hike in. I am probably repeating what others have said...

I think I read somewhere that Forrest hid the treasure in 2010, which was before the Las Conchas Fire which burned mostly in July 2011, then the floods hit later August through fall 2011 and 2012 and 2013. Bandelier was closed for awhile, I don't remember how long. Then opened certain areas a bit at a time. The Visitor Center had a lot of flooding too. The Frijoles Trail was washed out at the falls. If there was a treasure there it might have scattered down into the Rio Grande during all the flooding.

But Forrest said it's not there, it's not north of Santa Fe.

But maybe Randy is. Or maybe it was another recon mission and he still planned to take more photos from the east side, maybe from lower down before return to the car. Maybe he realized when he got there it was overcast, bad for photos, and Frijoles Canyon is in the shade in the afternoon, so wait until morning, then maybe just got too cold.

Did anyone searching on the east rim take any photos into Frijoles Canyon? Or anyone searching on the west rim take photos of the east rim?

He said it was at least 8.25 miles north of Santa Fe; actually he said "66,000 Links". But I'm sure you didn't mean NOT, right.

Anywho, .....I'll take a bunch of pictures tomorrow of the east canyon and the west. I'm going to go to the west side off of SR4 and to either DOE gate 2 or 4 and hike the entire Ancho Canyon. I'd actually like to hike over to Chaquehui Canyon and make a loop over to Ancho, but I'll probably do that another time. As it is that will be 4-5 miles. Chaquehui Canyon, if passable, which is the next canyon up from Frijoles Canyon, will take you all the way to the gate entrance at Bandelier.

I'm just concerned that if he left his hiking boots, unless he brought another pair with him on the rafting trip, then he was most likely going to try walking the river and the bank back up, instead of hiking out, which would nullify these canyons, unless he changed his mind and decided to take one. That and he bought a wet suit and waders. Sounds like he planned on walking the river back to his car. But gotta eliminate them, since he we haven't found him yet. He could have easily went up one though. I was hoping to hear from JB.

I know a few have suggested a river crossing and I didn't think anyone would try it with waders on, but after reading up on them I can see someone with chest high waders and little river experience trying to cross the river in them. If true, then we probably all understand the outcome.

If the wader crossing is true, then it would seem likely that he would end up at certain points along the river. There must be some gold prospectors on here who can tag all the high probability areas for a drowning victim to get trapped on the river (if any). If the had a pfd on then it would be much different and you would look in the eddys or the lake.
(01-26-2016, 08:52 AM)blazed Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-26-2016, 08:20 AM)FFSeeker Wrote: [ -> ]I know a few have suggested a river crossing and I didn't think anyone would try it with waders on, but after reading up on them I can see someone with chest high waders and little river experience trying to cross the river in them. If true, then we probably all understand the outcome.

If the wader crossing is true, then it would seem likely that he would end up at certain points along the river. There must be some gold prospectors on here who can tag all the high probability areas for a drowning victim to get trapped on the river (if any). If the had a pfd on then it would be much different and you would look in the eddys or the lake.

In that scenario I don't think he'd be that far from the raft. If he did end up floating down the river some, there's so many places he'd get stuck and manage to climb out of it. I don't think he's further than 1 or 2 miles, and most likely climbed out of it on the east side. We don't know how late it was, so maybe he tried to seek shelter for the night in the rocks on the east side. That's the first place I'd search. And with the snow storms from the 4th to the 9th and the freezing temps I doubt he ever got out of that spot.

If he makes it out, then it opens up the entire area downstream, but if he gets bogged down in the icy water with the waders on, then he gets carried along until some obstruction stops him. I don't know the Rio Grande bottom, but if it's rocky/volcanic at spots then it could trap him and make it impossible to ever find him. There are drowning cases on whitewater rivers where the victim is never found. I guess that's why the divers were out there.
(01-26-2016, 10:04 AM)admin Wrote: [ -> ]I'm still feeling he's in Fijoles. i appreciate that Forrest searched there and Bandelier Rangers did...but especially with this info that his old roommate saying he wanted to check behind the falls. I think it's obvious he was so careful to document how he was going to get there...and he finally took the chance. I know it doesn't seem nice to some that he would leave leo like that...but look at the fact he took leo down there at all. I think he's either behind the falls or didn't realize the water was so heavy in a fall and it knocked him down into the pool below.

I asked if Forrest would consider trying to get a SAR off duty in there since they can't while on the clock and/or ask Inside Edition if they have any camera capabilities to bring a camera behind the falls or below them.

I didn't realize the falls have that much water in them. Is that 365 or only after storms? Is the pool of water easily accessible from the river or does it require a rock climb?
On my way to search Ancho Canyon and below in the basalt field where he took that selfie on the west side. I'll check back in later and post info. and pictures....................
(01-26-2016, 10:39 AM)Project Why Wrote: [ -> ]On my way to search Ancho Canyon and below in the basalt field where he took that selfie on the west side. I'll check back in later and post info. and pictures....................

Great and good luck!
(01-26-2016, 10:04 AM)admin Wrote: [ -> ]I'm still feeling he's in Fijoles. i appreciate that Forrest searched there and Bandelier Rangers did...but especially with this info that his old roommate saying he wanted to check behind the falls. I think it's obvious he was so careful to document how he was going to get there...and he finally took the chance. I know it doesn't seem nice to some that he would leave leo like that...but look at the fact he took leo down there at all. I think he's either behind the falls or didn't realize the water was so heavy in a fall and it knocked him down into the pool below.

I asked if Forrest would consider trying to get a SAR off duty in there since they can't while on the clock and/or ask Inside Edition if they have any camera capabilities to bring a camera behind the falls or below them.

Since SAR is probability based and Frijoles is close to the raft (although on the wrong side and not where Leo was) there is a small but realistic probability he is there. It is obvious that was his goal based on the 24 Dec photos. Behind the falls is a natural place, we all have thought of that.

In SAR I learned never to judge how crazy a scenario is because when you see it long enough the things people did to get themselves in trouble will make your head spin (our unofficial moto is: "SAR- thwarting Darwinism for 65 years"). Treasure hunters are probably on the upper scale of crazy things that they will do in the name of gold fever -so almost anything is possible.

The only scenario that we can rule out is him falling off the raft upstream and it blowing on shore, and neatly placing itself in a nook and the paddles lining up neatly beside an air pump along with the dog. That is just impossible - sorry Martin. In case anyone has not figured out yet both paddles are intact . It is an optical illusion that makes it appear broken - dirt in front of it.

I am not sure about how access is to information in the USA, but in Canada we are very open and anything the NOK want to see or know we give it to them - it is very important for the NOK to see our efforts. Thus Randy's daughters should be able to get any kind of access they need. In Canada we can also use the access to information to gain access to police and SAR records but that takes time.

If the daughters were to ask for the file or a detailed report of areas searched, I am sure they could get every place SAR and the police have searched. I am sure it will confirm they searched the lower falls. I do agree that is very dangerous going behind the falls. The water does not flow heavily but the mist would create a very slippery surface that a fall would be easy.

I personally do not think he is over there based on all the evidence and the fact it has been searched by authorities, but to satisfy your mind it would be easier just to ask.

I will add that just because it has been searched does not mean it has been covered 100%. There is also a probability each search team will apply based on terrain and scan distance, etc that their coverage would actually be successful.

(01-26-2016, 11:01 AM)admin Wrote: [ -> ]
(01-26-2016, 10:34 AM)FFSeeker Wrote: [ -> ]I didn't realize the falls have that much water in them. Is that 365 or only after storms? Is the pool of water easily accessible from the river or does it require a rock climb?

The extent of my knowledge is just what I find online. The photos he took of falls is here.

http://www.thirtyacre.com/randy/FROMRAND...RANDY1.jpg

http://www.thirtyacre.com/randy/RANDY_CH...C_TEXT.jpg

This is Doug Scott's page on the Frijoles Falls
http://www.dougscottart.com/hobbies/wate...ijoles.htm

To me it looked like his attention was on the upper...but it might just have been the only one he was able to get to from above.

If you look at the bottom of Dougs page where he shows the lower and what it looks like now...it looks to me that if he had gotten hurt there...they would have found him. If he was trying to get his way to the upper one as he showed in his photo...it looks like there are plenty of places he could have fallen. I don't believe anyone on the ground could get to the upper falls.

I spoke with Doug Scott and unfortunately he can't help as he's caring for his 91 year old mother at the moment.

Oh and John said that him and Forrest looked pretty well inside Frijoles....so I don't know. I just feel he's in there because that's where he would have taken the most risks....trying to get to his spot.

Stephanie, I know you are fixated on Frijoles. But lets just play your scenario out to add a more realistic outcome.
- the raft is on the other side
- thus he attempted to walk across with his backpack, with or with out LEO.
- The highest risk even in this scenario is he is swept away by the river and LEO (if with him) swam back to the raft side.

Thus if he attempted a crazy thing of going back over there without the raft (which is the logical thing to attempt) then his rick was greatly increased by being swept away.

Bet

@wolf...you make some great points. There is no way the raft blew where it was found. The only way Leo could be with the raft is if he was left there or tracked his way back there. As sad as this is, I think it is time to come to terms with the fact that Randy is gone. I agree that Randy being swept down the river is highly possible, and would make sense given there is no trace of him.