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THE HINTS- VITAL TO SUCCESS
02-10-2019, 10:55 AM, (This post was last modified: 02-10-2019, 11:01 AM by fundamental design.)
RE: THE HINTS- VITAL TO SUCCESS
(02-10-2019, 12:52 AM)Chris Yates Wrote:
(02-09-2019, 11:47 PM)fundamental design Wrote: Around 10 days ago, Chris Yates said that we would know who they are if one who has made progress on the clues showed anything-

“as most people know, f has been making comments since that seem to indicate someone is making progress. again, the treasure hasn't been found yet, but whoever this person(s) is/are, they are not "showing anything" otherwise we would know who they are...”

as I explained to you repeatedly in our previous discussion, no one can "show anything" before the treasure is found

you were falsely claiming that you could know that a searcher has not solved any clues because they had not "showed anything"

I pointed out to you this was wrong because it is not possible for any searcher to "show anything" before the treasure was found

and then suddenly you became very confused saying that I had proved your point when the fact was I said a searcher could not "show anything", and you were the one saying the opposite, which is why i had to explain you were wrong because in fact a searcher cannot "show anything" before the treasure is found

and now you've become totally confused again and you are still not understanding what I am saying at all

the comment you quoted me above, I said that whoever the lead searcher is, they are not "showing anything". because if they were, we would know who they are, and the real point is, we do not know who they are because it is not possible for the lead searcher to "show anything" before the treasure is found

-Yes, I understand that you were trying repeatedly to explain that no one can “show anything” before the treasure is found. I then showed you were you are wrong with that statement.
——————-

“you were falsely claiming that you could know that a searcher has not solved any clues because they had not "showed anything"

-no, I was not claiming that. That was your claim of what you thought I was claiming. I explained that I was just providing the end result or reality of Mdavis’ approach. I said I didn’t care what the reason for why he hasn’t showed anything. I also said that by me doing it that way, I’m correct for any reason given why. You are the one that brought up a reason for it.

So, I stand by statements and think you are the confused one. Just like when you changed your tune from saying you can’t recognize any of the hints before you solve all the clues to then say you can’t recognize any of the hints before you solve a couple of the clues (paraphrased).

Pays to be a winner.
Reply
02-10-2019, 02:29 PM,
RE: THE HINTS- VITAL TO SUCCESS
(02-10-2019, 10:55 AM)fundamental design Wrote: “you were falsely claiming that you could know that a searcher has not solved any clues because they had not "showed anything"

-no, I was not claiming that.

so I suppose you've been backed into a corner and instead of admitting you are wrong you are trying to re-write history

everyone who read that thread knows what you were saying. it is black and white and very simple

you were knocking mdavis on that thread and the points he made on that thread (from years ago) by claiming that he hasn't shown any progress in solving the clues

again, this is what you said, this is what you claimed, and everyone who read it knows what you were saying

you can deny it if you want. this discussion can't go anywhere from here obviously if you won't acknowledge what you said

and again the point I made at the time was very simple. you can't claim to know that any searcher has not made progress (like you were claiming with mdavis) because it is simply not possible to see any progress from any searcher, before the treasure is found
Reply
02-10-2019, 04:13 PM, (This post was last modified: 02-10-2019, 04:55 PM by fundamental design.)
RE: THE HINTS- VITAL TO SUCCESS
(02-10-2019, 02:29 PM)Chris Yates Wrote:
(02-10-2019, 10:55 AM)fundamental design Wrote: “you were falsely claiming that you could know that a searcher has not solved any clues because they had not "showed anything"

-no, I was not claiming that.

so I suppose you've been backed into a corner and instead of admitting you are wrong you are trying to re-write history

everyone who read that thread knows what you were saying. it is black and white and very simple

you were knocking mdavis on that thread and the points he made on that thread (from years ago) by claiming that he hasn't shown any progress in solving the clues

again, this is what you said, this is what you claimed, and everyone who read it knows what you were saying

you can deny it if you want. this discussion can't go anywhere from here obviously if you won't acknowledge what you said

and again the point I made at the time was very simple. you can't claim to know that any searcher has not made progress (like you were claiming with mdavis) because it is simply not possible to see any progress from any searcher, before the treasure is found

I wasn’t claiming to know that Mdavis hasn’t made progress. I was claiming that he hasn’t “shown” any progress. Me saying “Mdavis hasn’t shown anything that shows that he has gotten any closer to figuring out the first clue, or beyond, by bypassing searching for book hints” means just that. My focus was on the first four words of the sentence “Mdavis hasn’t shown anything (while implying with his poem purist view)”. He hasn’t show any progress. Again, I don’t care what the reason is for why he hasn’t shown it. I win with any reason.

Care to explain what you mean by this “as most people know, f has been making comments since that seem to indicate someone is making progress. again, the treasure hasn't been found yet, but whoever this person(s) is/are, they are not "showing anything" otherwise we would know who they are...”

Are you saying we would know who is making progress if they showed something of the correct solve?

Pays to be a winner.
Reply
02-10-2019, 05:33 PM,
RE: THE HINTS- VITAL TO SUCCESS
(02-10-2019, 04:13 PM)fundamental design Wrote: Care to explain what you mean by this “as most people know, f has been making comments since that seem to indicate someone is making progress. again, the treasure hasn't been found yet, but whoever this person(s) is/are, they are not "showing anything" otherwise we would know who they are...”

my point (which I already explained in my previous reply) is that if someone was showing anything, then we would know who they are, but it isn't possible for anyone to show anything therefore it is not possible for us to know who they are

let me know if you need me to say this 3 or 4 more times because I will

(02-10-2019, 04:13 PM)fundamental design Wrote: I wasn’t claiming to know that Mdavis hasn’t made progress. I was claiming that he hasn’t “shown” any progress. Me saying “Mdavis hasn’t shown anything that shows that he has gotten any closer to figuring out the first clue, or beyond, by bypassing searching for book hints” means just that. My focus was on the first four words of the sentence “Mdavis hasn’t shown anything (while implying with his poem purist view)”. He hasn’t show any progress. Again, I don’t care what the reason is for why he hasn’t shown it. I win with any reason.

that mdavis hasn't shown any signs of making progress was exactly what you were claiming

there would be no point in you saying that, unless you are suggesting that a searcher can show progress

"I win with any reason" - obviously this means you can't support your argument with reason so you win no matter what, in your own mind

if you are acknowledging that mdavis can't show any progress because no searcher can show any progress, then you are acknowledging that there was no point to what you were saying

and if there was no point to what you were saying, then the simple fact would be that you were WRONG to try and use it as a knock on mdavis. you were trying to give this as a reason to discount the points mdavis made on that thread
Reply
02-11-2019, 05:09 AM, (This post was last modified: 02-11-2019, 06:27 AM by fundamental design.)
RE: THE HINTS- VITAL TO SUCCESS
(02-10-2019, 05:33 PM)Chris Yates Wrote:
(02-10-2019, 04:13 PM)fundamental design Wrote: Care to explain what you mean by this “as most people know, f has been making comments since that seem to indicate someone is making progress. again, the treasure hasn't been found yet, but whoever this person(s) is/are, they are not "showing anything" otherwise we would know who they are...”

my point (which I already explained in my previous reply) is that if someone was showing anything, then we would know who they are, but it isn't possible for anyone to show anything therefore it is not possible for us to know who they are

let me know if you need me to say this 3 or 4 more times because I will

I don’t agree with what you are saying here as it is written. So, yeah, you might have to explain yourself better. I don’t agree with what you are saying about show “anything”. That’s a broad term. By using that term I think what you are saying is wrong.

Also, do you mean in public view? In your mind, why is it not possible to show “anything”?

(02-10-2019, 05:33 PM)Chris Yates Wrote:
(02-10-2019, 04:13 PM)fundamental design Wrote: I wasn’t claiming to know that Mdavis hasn’t made progress. I was claiming that he hasn’t “shown” any progress. Me saying “Mdavis hasn’t shown anything that shows that he has gotten any closer to figuring out the first clue, or beyond, by bypassing searching for book hints” means just that. My focus was on the first four words of the sentence “Mdavis hasn’t shown anything (while implying with his poem purist view)”. He hasn’t show any progress. Again, I don’t care what the reason is for why he hasn’t shown it. I win with any reason.

that mdavis hasn't shown any signs of making progress was exactly what you were claiming

there would be no point in you saying that, unless you are suggesting that a searcher can show progress

"I win with any reason" - obviously this means you can't support your argument with reason so you win no matter what, in your own mind

if you are acknowledging that mdavis can't show any progress because no searcher can show any progress, then you are acknowledging that there was no point to what you were saying

and if there was no point to what you were saying, then the simple fact would be that you were WRONG to try and use it as a knock on mdavis. you were trying to give this as a reason to discount the points mdavis made on that thread

I am not acknowledging what you think is some valuable thing to think. Obviously, I did not do as you are trying to portray since I think one can show progress with something in the Chase. I’ve been saying it for years on various threads and other places and I alluded to it on the previous thread we were discussing at. Plenty of other searchers’ eyeballs have witnessed that before. So, you’re gonna have to come up with some better evidence of what you think my intentions were.

On top of that, one can separate the two things. One can say that a certain searcher has not shown progress (allowing that it hasn’t been missed) and not mention any reason why. That can be the point they are making. They can also say what method that searcher is using and that wouldn’t be the reason why. It’s not that hard to reasonably show that. Lastly, like I said above, one can not agree with your basic contention so that would obviously go against their opinion about that. Don’t make sense on your part.

Pays to be a winner.
Reply
02-11-2019, 03:04 PM, (This post was last modified: 02-11-2019, 03:06 PM by Chris Yates.)
RE: THE HINTS- VITAL TO SUCCESS
if you think it is possible for a searcher to show something that would let us know they have made progress in solving the clues, then there is an easy way for you to prove that you are right and I am wrong

provide one hypothetical example of a scenario where a searcher is showing something that would let us know they've made progress and have solved a clue, or clues (before the treasure is found)

and logically, we should both understand, that if a scenario you provide is only giving you a reason to have an opinion that you or somebody else has solved clues, this is completely unhelpful and would in fact only provide further evidence you are wrong, unless you can come up with another scenario that is not just giving us opinion based conclusions

you understand, I hope, that any opinions you or I have, or any searcher has, does nothing to "show anything" or prove that any searcher has made any progress

you understand, i hope, that in this treasure hunt we have thousands of searchers with opinions up the yin yang that they or somebody else has solved clues and made progress

all these opinions, of course, are completely unhelpful and do not "show anything" that anyone has actually made progress

so your point, if you are correct, would be easy to prove.

I am not asking you to provide evidence to that any particular searcher has made progress

what I am asking is simply to provide a hypothetical scenario that would tell us that any searcher has made progress. that they have "showed anything" at all

because, you are claiming this is possible, and if it is, then you should be able to provide at least one example of how it would be possible
Reply
02-12-2019, 07:32 AM, (This post was last modified: 02-12-2019, 09:04 AM by fundamental design.)
RE: THE HINTS- VITAL TO SUCCESS
(02-11-2019, 03:04 PM)Chris Yates Wrote: if you think it is possible for a searcher to show something that would let us know they have made progress in solving the clues, then there is an easy way for you to prove that you are right and I am wrong

provide one hypothetical example of a scenario where a searcher is showing something that would let us know they've made progress and have solved a clue, or clues (before the treasure is found)

what I am asking is simply to provide a hypothetical scenario that would tell us that any searcher has made progress. that they have "showed anything" at all

because, you are claiming this is possible, and if it is, then you should be able to provide at least one example of how it would be possible

You do understand that you are talking about 2 different things above that I quoted and have only responded to one of the two?

First, you bring up about if someone has made progress in solving the clues.

Which is different than saying what you’ve said before and I replied to, which you repeat here...”what I am asking is simply to provide a hypothetical scenario that would tell us that any searcher has made progress. that they have "showed anything" at all”.

Showing progress with “anything at all” in the Chase could be about someone has made progress with any part of the mystery that shrouds the treasure path. That can include clues, hints or the one certain process that f says is needed to be figured out. Showing that one came up with a word that is key concept, which f verified is part of the process, does just that.

If one isn’t even focusing on the beginning of the process then I don’t find it compelling to be talking about showing progress in solving the clues. I’ve never felt compelled to answer that specific point because it’s unnecessary. I agree with you there. It’s why you’ll find me immersed in the hint section of the Chase (the part before the clues)...trying to lock on to the proper ingredients to make the proper catalyst with the clues.

Surely, someone else has completed an escape room where the host asks if you want a hint to help with the first clue. And you then recognized that you solved the hint before you use it’s answer to solve that first clue and all the rest of the clues.

Instead of asking f how many clues have been solved, a way more intriguing question to f would be has any searcher correctly identified any of the hints? He would never answer that one and the main reason being it’s too important a part of the processs, imo. F’s answer of the first 2 clues being solved but the searchers don’t know it was them underlies my point. That’s not helpful. I think searchers will know they solved an aspect of the correct hints. I wouldn’t doubt that has happened already, so that is another answer for you.

Pays to be a winner.
Reply
02-12-2019, 09:18 PM, (This post was last modified: 02-12-2019, 09:48 PM by BackTL.)
THE HINTS- VITAL TO SUCCESS
Ok. Trying a bit of logic here. Short of finding the treasure, only Forrest could say whether a searcher is making actual progress toward the correct solution, since Forrest stated that he alone knows where the treasure is hidden.

The best any searcher can do is to make progress on their particular solution. He\she may reach a point of confidence in their solution, but cannot reach certainty without obtaining the treasure (unless receiving confirmation directly from Forrest).

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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02-13-2019, 06:48 AM, (This post was last modified: 02-13-2019, 08:01 AM by fundamental design.)
RE: THE HINTS- VITAL TO SUCCESS
(02-12-2019, 09:18 PM)BackTL Wrote: Ok. Trying a bit of logic here. Short of finding the treasure, only Forrest could say whether a searcher is making actual progress toward the correct solution, since Forrest stated that he alone knows where the treasure is hidden.

The best any searcher can do is to make progress on their particular solution. He\she may reach a point of confidence in their solution, but cannot reach certainty without obtaining the treasure (unless receiving confirmation directly from Forrest).

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Here’s my reasoning. I agree with your first paragraph and I’m saying that, imo, f has confirmed directly the progress that I last wrote up. So, that would pass your test.

I also think that it will be only the one way that I brought up that will be able to pass the correct, tough to pass test you brought up. The test you brought up, the correct test, is making actual progress on the correct solution as f sees it. That means “anything” that helps me show progress- any mechanism (not just clues) that f verifies after the searcher contacted f. The test isn’t being able to show progress on just the clues cause that ain’t ever gonna happen so it’s uncompelling from the start.

About the confidence and certainty part. Also in my last write up, I talked about how a hint and clues work in an escape room. Obviously, f didn’t have to follow the exact mechanisms of this particular escape room in his Chase. But, it is reasonable to understand that the mechanism of hints work universally when used in conjunction with a clue or clues. Hints get the ball rolling with confidence or certainty if you can’t solve the clue on its own with confidence or certainty. Combine that with the fact that it’s universally accepted that the hint, in comparison to the clue you are stuck on, should be an easier mystery to solve for essentially everyone. When you think about it, it just clicks that, yeah, that’s how every other hint has worked in conjunction with clues in all kinds of settings. I can’t think of it working backwards where the clue that you are stuck on is solved first, then later clues solved and finally the hint is solved that confirms the clue you were stuck on...huh, why would we need the hint then? If I opened the 4 digit combination lock clue (in my example below) without the hint then I don’t need confirmation from the hint afterwards. Don’t make sense that way. It’s the hint that is crucial cause it’s the only key (combination) that unlocks that clue and you will know when you have the key. Imo, that’s what we have in the Chase.

Here’s the prime example that I’m talking about. We go into the escape room and the host goes over the rules and such. The last thing she said was do you want a hint to the first clue because she let us know that the first clue was a 4 digit combination lock. So, obviously we aren’t gonna be solving the clue (combination lock) in the amount of time given with confidence or certainty.

The hint was a poster map displayed on the wall. It had many push pins sticking in it with the classic web of string attached going all kinds of places and ways. So, there were many paths to take on the various routes of string and writing on the map behind the string paths. On one of the paths they had written, in very tiny writing, a set of 4 numbers that were spread at different intervals along the one path. There was a way to figure out to hone in on that one path like the writing on the poster map was red at the start of that string path. Of course, the 4 numbers found along that path were the only correct info given to unlock the first clue. Everything else would be a guess.

Apply that to the Chase and it’s the same outcome, relatively speaking. In the Chase, you don’t just get an hour to solve the clues and find the treasure but the problem is also vastly more immense than just a 4 digit combination lock. The Chase is like a 10 billion digit combination lock (or whatever number you like).

So, as my reasoning has been all along, I believe it’s similar in the Chase. F has verified that just using the first clue isn’t enough info to figure out the first clue. To me, no one can reason that the point I’m making isn’t reasonable. It’s just the universal nature of the relationship between hints and clues in the real world. Treasure hunters should be able to pick up on that. Especially since f has said his best advice for serious searchers is to look for the hints in his book to help with the clues. I think f will never speak of a possible hint in the poem. I’m covered with talking about both the book and possible poem hints.

Pays to be a winner.
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04-02-2019, 02:59 PM, (This post was last modified: 04-02-2019, 03:10 PM by fundamental design.)
RE: THE HINTS- VITAL TO SUCCESS
Here comes the confirmation bias blue birds again. Blue in the face from all their “confirmation bias” chirps.

Do you think that other treasure hunt “The Secret” depends on only confirmation bias to find one of the buried casques? Do you think all riddles depend on only confirmation bias to correctly answer the riddle? I’d say that f was most cognizant of providing some type of confirmation in the Chase to help the finder. It only has to help for only one step of the way...probably in the beginning. The not so bright only talk about the clues in this regard when they forget all about the chance that the mechanism which can provide a form of confirmation are the hints.

I’m sure f knows how to put together a puzzle/riddle that doesn’t solely rely on confirmation bias to solve the hunt. He assured me of this when I asked him the following question below. I don’t think f’s certain process is relying solely on confirmation bias, lol...

Yes sir. f

-----Original Message-----
From: james gulden [mailto:jamesgulden@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2016 5:23 PM
To: Forrest Fenn <forrestfenn@gmail.com>
Subject: Question for Featured Question

Hi Forrest,

Does your poem require a certain process to solve it?

Thank you, James

Pays to be a winner.
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