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THE HINTS- VITAL TO SUCCESS
07-11-2019, 07:11 PM,
RE: THE HINTS- VITAL TO SUCCESS
(07-11-2019, 04:06 PM)fundamental design Wrote: I also don’t understand Sean’s take on the subtle clues in the book weren’t deliberately placed to aid the seeker. To me, you can’t just focus in on the weren’t deliberately placed part. That’s out of context. You got to include the to aid the seeker part. That part, to me, means those subtle hints don’t act as clues in the poem. They only help the clues which we know from other f quotes. Just another way that f described it.

So, I think some people interpret this to mean that Mr F did not deliberately put the hints in the book. That is absurd, in my opinion. How else did they get in the book? By accident? Clearly, he put the hints in the book on purpose, and he means something else with the statement.
Reply
07-11-2019, 08:38 PM,
RE: THE HINTS- VITAL TO SUCCESS
(07-11-2019, 07:11 PM)dude here Wrote:
(07-11-2019, 04:06 PM)fundamental design Wrote: I also don’t understand Sean’s take on the subtle clues in the book weren’t deliberately placed to aid the seeker. To me, you can’t just focus in on the weren’t deliberately placed part. That’s out of context. You got to include the to aid the seeker part. That part, to me, means those subtle hints don’t act as clues in the poem. They only help the clues which we know from other f quotes. Just another way that f described it.

So, I think some people interpret this to mean that Mr F did not deliberately put the hints in the book. That is absurd, in my opinion. How else did they get in the book? By accident? Clearly, he put the hints in the book on purpose, and he means something else with the statement.

Whoever gets the box of goodies should leave something of great value in its place and sell a book of hints. Or, have a blog that gives hints out sporadic and freely.
Reply
07-11-2019, 09:57 PM,
RE: THE HINTS- VITAL TO SUCCESS
(07-11-2019, 04:06 PM)fundamental design Wrote: This is a write up I did on Seannm’s The Flip Side- Flip the Flip (forget the exact name...Flip the script?) with Minotaur Moreno. I’m pasting it here from another thread...

I can’t believe that Sean said he hadn’t thought about the idea that hints in the book can be found from looking for things that are abstract, that catch up in your brain as f has mentioned to us. Aberrations too. I know that I’ve mentioned that plenty of times when him and Mdavis show the way of a poem purist.

I also don’t agree with Sean that the hints in the book are soooooo subjective. I think it’s the complete opposite. The hints are the non-subjective tidbit in the chain of the correct solve. All the clues in the poem, by themselves, are the subjective problem in the Chase.

I also don’t understand Sean’s take on the subtle clues in the book weren’t deliberately placed to aid the seeker. To me, you can’t just focus in on the weren’t deliberately placed part. That’s out of context. You got to include the to aid the seeker part. That part, to me, means those subtle hints don’t act as clues in the poem. They only help the clues which we know from other f quotes. Just another way that f described it.

That brings me to my next point. Sean says the hints in the book are subjective so that’s why he sticks with the poem. But if you, or anyone, are having a tough time with just the clues, then why wouldn’t you go to the hints as f’s best advice suggests. Cause the hints “help” with the clues. I’m not saying I know how far along each searcher is in correctly figuring out the clues but how long are you gonna say I don’t need any help with the clues?...2 years, 5 years, 10 years, 20 years, 40 years? Don’t kid yourself.

Sean and other poem purists don’t call attention to the situation that the apparent vagueness of the poem levels out pleeeeeenty of subjectiveness in where the combinations of the nine clues can take a searcher if they don’t use a hint. I have structured my posts about the hints on not separating the hints in the book and possible hint(s) in the poem.

I do agree with Sean that the poem does provide a way to unlock the correct wwwh. I’d say that will be unlocked by a hint in the poem that is tougher to figure out than the hints in the book. But, they all will work in concert to provide the best confidence because they all lead to the same general area.

I don’t agree with Sean that it’s a waste of time to look into further mentionings in the book if something sticks up in your mind. Like Sean’s example of Robert Redford’s book. There simply is a map in the beginning of the book. What happens if something on the map corresponds to something in another example that Sean brought up...John C whatever? Did anyone check to see if John C whatever was a real student that went to f’s school at the time?

At one point Sean said something like he knows the hints in the book are subjective. I don’t agree that’s a good way to put it. You can think that, but there could be one aspect for each of the couple of hints that is non subjective. Robert Redford did write a book. Non subjective. Very subtle as it’s not even written in TTOTC that Redford did write a book. If that’s a hint somehow, it passes the test that it wasn’t deliberately placed to aid the seeker because it doesn’t get one closer to the tc than the first clue does. The first clue is where the definition of a clue starts.

Edit to add: I liked Minotaur’s ideas about the topic. One thing that I think needs to be refined is that he said maybe there’s hints in the book that apply to 9 clue locations somehow. At other times, he said he thought the hints take one to the correct general where one can find wwwh. I think this second theory is all that is needed. We don’t need added hints to help with all, or most, of the clues because the clues do that. The clues set up the next clue.

@fundamental design, just wanted to thank you for your comments and opinions.

I really thank Sean for letting me come on his show and let me give my opinions knowing going in that we disagree on some things, but both are willing to hear the other’s perspective and see if we can be persuaded by their argument or not.

After watching it back, overall, I’m happy with how it turned out and believe both of us conveyed what we believe. Obviously, there are parts I cringe at what I say, wish I would have said something more concise, or see exactly right where my mind starts moving so fast that my mouth has a hard time keeping up which is somewhat embarrassing, but I’m still happy I did it.

All the best everybody and someone find this chest already!

mm (Justin)
______________________________________________
If you would like to know my W.W.W.H., get a list of over 600 GNIS potential ones, and another list of 5,000 searchable springs with coordinate information, you can literally buy it here for $25: https://www.ebay.com/itm/283499665615
Reply
07-11-2019, 09:58 PM,
RE: THE HINTS- VITAL TO SUCCESS
(07-11-2019, 04:06 PM)fundamental design Wrote: This is a write up I did on Seannm’s The Flip Side- Flip the Flip (forget the exact name...Flip the script?) with Minotaur Moreno. I’m pasting it here from another thread...

I can’t believe that Sean said he hadn’t thought about the idea that hints in the book can be found from looking for things that are abstract, that catch up in your brain as f has mentioned to us. Aberrations too. I know that I’ve mentioned that plenty of times when him and Mdavis show the way of a poem purist.

I also don’t agree with Sean that the hints in the book are soooooo subjective. I think it’s the complete opposite. The hints are the non-subjective tidbit in the chain of the correct solve. All the clues in the poem, by themselves, are the subjective problem in the Chase.

I also don’t understand Sean’s take on the subtle clues in the book weren’t deliberately placed to aid the seeker. To me, you can’t just focus in on the weren’t deliberately placed part. That’s out of context. You got to include the to aid the seeker part. That part, to me, means those subtle hints don’t act as clues in the poem. They only help the clues which we know from other f quotes. Just another way that f described it.

That brings me to my next point. Sean says the hints in the book are subjective so that’s why he sticks with the poem. But if you, or anyone, are having a tough time with just the clues, then why wouldn’t you go to the hints as f’s best advice suggests. Cause the hints “help” with the clues. I’m not saying I know how far along each searcher is in correctly figuring out the clues but how long are you gonna say I don’t need any help with the clues?...2 years, 5 years, 10 years, 20 years, 40 years? Don’t kid yourself.

Sean and other poem purists don’t call attention to the situation that the apparent vagueness of the poem levels out pleeeeeenty of subjectiveness in where the combinations of the nine clues can take a searcher if they don’t use a hint. I have structured my posts about the hints on not separating the hints in the book and possible hint(s) in the poem.

I do agree with Sean that the poem does provide a way to unlock the correct wwwh. I’d say that will be unlocked by a hint in the poem that is tougher to figure out than the hints in the book. But, they all will work in concert to provide the best confidence because they all lead to the same general area.

I don’t agree with Sean that it’s a waste of time to look into further mentionings in the book if something sticks up in your mind. Like Sean’s example of Robert Redford’s book. There simply is a map in the beginning of the book. What happens if something on the map corresponds to something in another example that Sean brought up...John C whatever? Did anyone check to see if John C whatever was a real student that went to f’s school at the time?

At one point Sean said something like he knows the hints in the book are subjective. I don’t agree that’s a good way to put it. You can think that, but there could be one aspect for each of the couple of hints that is non subjective. Robert Redford did write a book. Non subjective. Very subtle as it’s not even written in TTOTC that Redford did write a book. If that’s a hint somehow, it passes the test that it wasn’t deliberately placed to aid the seeker because it doesn’t get one closer to the tc than the first clue does. The first clue is where the definition of a clue starts.

Edit to add: I liked Minotaur’s ideas about the topic. One thing that I think needs to be refined is that he said maybe there’s hints in the book that apply to 9 clue locations somehow. At other times, he said he thought the hints take one to the correct general where one can find wwwh. I think this second theory is all that is needed. We don’t need added hints to help with all, or most, of the clues because the clues do that. The clues set up the next clue.
Yup, MM mopped the floor with Seannm.

This is what happened. Seannm thought he would solve this thing first try and got his hopes all up and didn't take the walk of shame too well. He burned Fenn's book in full public display in a temper tantrum. To save face, he was going to show how he is better than everyone else and jumped on the "poem purist" bandwagon.

He is now realizing the pendulum swung too far to the right. The subjective argument is crap. The poem is nothing but subjective. The book is needed to resolve ambiguity.
Reply
07-11-2019, 10:44 PM,
RE: THE HINTS- VITAL TO SUCCESS
(07-11-2019, 08:38 PM)Daniel A Wrote:
(07-11-2019, 07:11 PM)dude here Wrote:
(07-11-2019, 04:06 PM)fundamental design Wrote: I also don’t understand Sean’s take on the subtle clues in the book weren’t deliberately placed to aid the seeker. To me, you can’t just focus in on the weren’t deliberately placed part. That’s out of context. You got to include the to aid the seeker part. That part, to me, means those subtle hints don’t act as clues in the poem. They only help the clues which we know from other f quotes. Just another way that f described it.

So, I think some people interpret this to mean that Mr F did not deliberately put the hints in the book. That is absurd, in my opinion. How else did they get in the book? By accident? Clearly, he put the hints in the book on purpose, and he means something else with the statement.

Whoever gets the box of goodies should leave something of great value in its place and sell a book of hints. Or, have a blog that gives hints out sporadic and freely.

Yeah, I agree. The table is set and there's a huge audience of hungry searchers. The finder should consider doing something to keep the chase alive.
Reply
07-12-2019, 06:45 AM, (This post was last modified: 07-12-2019, 11:16 AM by fundamental design.)
RE: THE HINTS- VITAL TO SUCCESS
(07-11-2019, 07:11 PM)dude here Wrote:
(07-11-2019, 04:06 PM)fundamental design Wrote: I also don’t understand Sean’s take on the subtle clues in the book weren’t deliberately placed to aid the seeker. To me, you can’t just focus in on the weren’t deliberately placed part. That’s out of context. You got to include the to aid the seeker part. That part, to me, means those subtle hints don’t act as clues in the poem. They only help the clues which we know from other f quotes. Just another way that f described it.

So, I think some people interpret this to mean that Mr F did not deliberately put the hints in the book. That is absurd, in my opinion. How else did they get in the book? By accident? Clearly, he put the hints in the book on purpose, and he means something else with the statement.

Exactly. It would be reasonable to think that f prbly had to be most creative and put more thought in how to architect, then hide, the hints than most of the clues. This goes back to dude here’s earlier comment (So, I think some people interpret this to mean that Mr F did not deliberately put the hints in the book. That is absurd, in my opinion. How else did they get in the book? By accident? Clearly, he put the hints in the book on purpose, and he means something else with the statement.)

(07-11-2019, 09:57 PM)minotaur_moreno Wrote:
(07-11-2019, 04:06 PM)fundamental design Wrote: This is a write up I did on Seannm’s The Flip Side- Flip the Flip (forget the exact name...Flip the script?) with Minotaur Moreno. I’m pasting it here from another thread...

I can’t believe that Sean said he hadn’t thought about the idea that hints in the book can be found from looking for things that are abstract, that catch up in your brain as f has mentioned to us. Aberrations too. I know that I’ve mentioned that plenty of times when him and Mdavis show the way of a poem purist.

I also don’t agree with Sean that the hints in the book are soooooo subjective. I think it’s the complete opposite. The hints are the non-subjective tidbit in the chain of the correct solve. All the clues in the poem, by themselves, are the subjective problem in the Chase.

I also don’t understand Sean’s take on the subtle clues in the book weren’t deliberately placed to aid the seeker. To me, you can’t just focus in on the weren’t deliberately placed part. That’s out of context. You got to include the to aid the seeker part. That part, to me, means those subtle hints don’t act as clues in the poem. They only help the clues which we know from other f quotes. Just another way that f described it.

That brings me to my next point. Sean says the hints in the book are subjective so that’s why he sticks with the poem. But if you, or anyone, are having a tough time with just the clues, then why wouldn’t you go to the hints as f’s best advice suggests. Cause the hints “help” with the clues. I’m not saying I know how far along each searcher is in correctly figuring out the clues but how long are you gonna say I don’t need any help with the clues?...2 years, 5 years, 10 years, 20 years, 40 years? Don’t kid yourself.

Sean and other poem purists don’t call attention to the situation that the apparent vagueness of the poem levels out pleeeeeenty of subjectiveness in where the combinations of the nine clues can take a searcher if they don’t use a hint. I have structured my posts about the hints on not separating the hints in the book and possible hint(s) in the poem.

I do agree with Sean that the poem does provide a way to unlock the correct wwwh. I’d say that will be unlocked by a hint in the poem that is tougher to figure out than the hints in the book. But, they all will work in concert to provide the best confidence because they all lead to the same general area.

I don’t agree with Sean that it’s a waste of time to look into further mentionings in the book if something sticks up in your mind. Like Sean’s example of Robert Redford’s book. There simply is a map in the beginning of the book. What happens if something on the map corresponds to something in another example that Sean brought up...John C whatever? Did anyone check to see if John C whatever was a real student that went to f’s school at the time?

At one point Sean said something like he knows the hints in the book are subjective. I don’t agree that’s a good way to put it. You can think that, but there could be one aspect for each of the couple of hints that is non subjective. Robert Redford did write a book. Non subjective. Very subtle as it’s not even written in TTOTC that Redford did write a book. If that’s a hint somehow, it passes the test that it wasn’t deliberately placed to aid the seeker because it doesn’t get one closer to the tc than the first clue does. The first clue is where the definition of a clue starts.

Edit to add: I liked Minotaur’s ideas about the topic. One thing that I think needs to be refined is that he said maybe there’s hints in the book that apply to 9 clue locations somehow. At other times, he said he thought the hints take one to the correct general where one can find wwwh. I think this second theory is all that is needed. We don’t need added hints to help with all, or most, of the clues because the clues do that. The clues set up the next clue.

@fundamental design, just wanted to thank you for your comments and opinions.

I really thank Sean for letting me come on his show and let me give my opinions knowing going in that we disagree on some things, but both are willing to hear the other’s perspective and see if we can be persuaded by their argument or not.

After watching it back, overall, I’m happy with how it turned out and believe both of us conveyed what we believe. Obviously, there are parts I cringe at what I say, wish I would have said something more concise, or see exactly right where my mind starts moving so fast that my mouth has a hard time keeping up which is somewhat embarrassing, but I’m still happy I did it.

All the best everybody and someone find this chest already!

mm (Justin)

Awesome, Justin. I enjoyed watching both of your guys’ take on it. I appreciated the topic that you steered the conversation to...laying a case for why it can be beneficial to try and figure out the hints outside the poem. I think that is the most important meat and potatoes topic in the Chase. Another word for it is “Content”. A lot of these other topics on the shows aren’t really meat and potato content.

I think Sean’s steering the conversation towards this get back in the box quote was as you described...we don’t really know exactly what it means and nobody will be able to objectively come up with the correct idea for that. So, it’s not as important as parts of the puzzle that prbly are objective.

I liked your comment comparing trying to figure out the poem by itself to the odds, or chances, of winning the lottery. Yeah it can be done but why not try to improve your odds? Also, your comment that something in the Chase has to give us the correct starting location. The other comment you made that rings true was that in other treasure hunts it’s something in the abstract things or aberrations that one finds a hint in to get things rolling. Excellent points!

I just added one sentence to my beginning post yesterday that I’ll state here in case it was missed.

We know from f that there are easier clues and there is a tougher clue to figure out because wwwh is the toughest and the clues get progressively easier from there.

So, why wouldn’t that be the case for the hints that f provided. Could be that a possible hint in the poem is tougher to crack than the couple of hints in the book. That would be one reason for why f has steered us to his book. I’m saying this is pretty easy to figure out to set up the Chase this way if you were the architect that was designing it. It brings the Chase the most exposure.


Howdy, Mister.
Reply
07-12-2019, 07:43 AM,
RE: THE HINTS- VITAL TO SUCCESS
Notice no thumbs down on this one? This message should be received loud and clear to Seannm. Just STFU and ask questions, and let the more knowledgeable guest do the talking. No one wants to hear the same guy's opinion over and over, repeating himself.
Reply
07-12-2019, 08:24 AM,
RE: THE HINTS- VITAL TO SUCCESS
Chuck D taught me there’s always a flip side.


Howdy, Mister.
Reply
07-14-2019, 09:15 AM, (This post was last modified: 07-14-2019, 09:29 AM by fundamental design.)
RE: THE HINTS- VITAL TO SUCCESS
Seannm has been asking this question: How many of you believe it is possible to identify the correct starting point with just the poem and a map?

Justin said elsewhere:

I feel the odds of u finding the chest just using the poem and a map is similar to a person winning Powerball. Possible, yes. Probable, no.

Realistically, you only have a real shot at finding the chest with the poem, a map, and TTOTC.

mm


Seannm’s reply:

Thank you, that I would believe is an answer in the affirmative, no matter the odds.The Powerball, however, is about chance or luck, and this shouldn't be about luck, it is supposed to be earned, and earned though thinking and analyzing not just random number picking in hopes of getting lucky.

Seannm

————————————-
Justin’s point is about what he feels the “odds” are in finding the tc with just the poem and a map. He just compared those odds to another, different undertaking which is winning the Powerball. One can compare two different undertakings’ odds while not comparing the route, or effort, taken to achieve success. It’s interesting that Sean didn’t dispute the odds that Justin gave. I think it’s important to keep those odds in mind because if that’s were the odds are basically at, then serious searchers would prbly admit to themselves that they need “help with the clues”...hence the hints.

I think Seannm’s question is just a basic level question like one asks themselves within the first month of their Chase.

The next level question is do you think it’s possible to identify the correct starting point with just the clues in the poem and a map? If you answer no, then refer back to Justin’s reply above and the rest of this post.


Howdy, Mister.
Reply
07-14-2019, 10:42 AM,
RE: THE HINTS- VITAL TO SUCCESS
"The Powerball, however, is about chance or luck, and this shouldn't be about luck, it is supposed to be earned, and earned though thinking and analyzing not just random number picking in hopes of getting lucky. ~Seannm"

This is where sean dorkson missed the point entirely. Fenn said a person can solve the poem with only the poem and that is what dorkson hangs his hat on. Continuing with MM's Powerball analogy. Dorkson buys only one ticket with the poem (because he believes that only one is needed to win). However, if one uses the TTOTC, and any other of Fenn's suggestions to find the treasure it is effectively like buying a million tickets. That in itself doesn't guarantee a win, but who has the better odds of winning? Dorkson with his one ticket (poem) or the million ticket purchaser (the one who uses all tools suggested by Fenn)?

It is all about the odds, and for that sean Dorkson needs to go back to school to figure out.
Reply


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