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Poem Purists are from the Devil!
06-29-2020, 09:29 PM, (This post was last modified: 06-29-2020, 10:34 PM by fundamental design.)
#71
RE: Poem Purists are from the Devil!
(06-29-2020, 08:57 PM)Beavertooth Wrote:
(06-29-2020, 07:12 PM)fundamental design Wrote: BT, what are you trying to say about your suppose trump card...But tarry scant with marvel gaze. Are you saying that line was a clue or a hint?

I’m with TS, your argument that supposedly rains on our parade does no such thing as we are talking about two separate things.

Yes, it is a hint in the poem. You have to do multiple passes in the poem. Layers.The first pass is to get the general area. The second pass has the nine clues. The third pass??

So back to TS's comment:

But tarry scant with marvel gaze.

TS forgot the best part of the line from my posted solve. He was talking about gaze and stargazing, I think. He left out the first part (my trump card).

But tarry scant = buttery scant = yellow stone

with marvel gaze = star gazers and geyser gazers (It is a real thing)

So you may well argue that multiple layers in the poem with hints in addition to clues supports "hints". My contention is that it is all in the poem. You do not need outside hints from TTOTC or anywhere else. Forrest told us many times to read and re-read the poem. Most did not take that to mean multiple layers. I did. Without a layer to define the smaller area in the Rockies, the task would be hopeless.

TS argues that because one person out of 350,000 used the poem and TTOTC to get to the correct solve (after 10 years), that means poem purists are disproved. My contention is that a true poem purist should have solved the poem 5 or more years ago, but they (we) all got distracted by the hints in TTOTC, scrapbooks, etc and it slowed all of us down.

You guys have proven nothing in my view. And if you were a poem purist and had an astronomy background, you should have solved it 7 or more years ago. The astronomy background was a much better advantage than any info that a "bunny" ever got from Fenn, if they even did.

I have posted a solve that proves my point about poem purism (ie, that it can be done, and that TTOTC is not needed). I will be posting a solve that will bring in the astronomy advantage (I don't count Keppler pointing the way to WWWH as being an important astronomy advantage, although knowledge of his accomplishments should have helped).

Again...we are mostly talking apples and oranges. Our main contention doesn’t involve your contention. We can have two different contentions. I like ours better. I like it better cause that’s what I predicted a long time ago and it came true. F has said as much. So, I didn’t prove anything like you said. F proved my prediction. That’s better. That’s my trump card. My trump card beats your trump card so far. So does my other f proven trump card. 2 for 2.

Many got tripped up on the concept if something isn’t required that that means it’s not helpful. I don’t understand why that was so tough for many searchers.

Anyway, so you are saying that f told us what a hint (or part of a hint) in the poem meant before it was announced that the tc was found. Great!

Pays to be a winner.
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06-29-2020, 09:53 PM,
#72
RE: Poem Purists are from the Devil!
BT are you sure that surgery didn't nip out a part of your brain too? I am more a poem focused guy that you are, but I am the first to admit this poem purist thing was crap. It appears Mr. Finder was using my technique, poem as a first and lead focus, with support coming from TTOTC. My solve stands alone with just the poem only but that doesn't mean squat.

Now back to you losing solve, you know what kills your solve? Fenn's words. He said "many searchers have identified the first clue correctly" Do you think many would come up with your starting spot? I mean it is a stretch to think a cascade is WWWH let alone Kepler. Like I said, I like parts of your solve, I just don't think you started off right - too unique.
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06-30-2020, 12:20 AM, (This post was last modified: 06-30-2020, 12:24 AM by Beavertooth.)
#73
RE: Poem Purists are from the Devil!
(06-29-2020, 09:29 PM)fundamental design Wrote: Many got tripped up on the concept if something isn’t required that that means it’s not helpful. I don’t understand why that was so tough for many searchers.

You have completely missed my point. You say the hints helped. Big whup. I say they helped one person., in your context that he crossed the finish line first. I say the hints slowed down the other 350,000 searchers, including myself, by years. The hints victimized us with time, expense, and money, and what is even worse, innumerable debates about hints, which I considered to be the biggest joke of all in the chase.

There were no true poem purists that I know of. I truly wish there had been some who had resisted the siren song of Fenn and fundy. The chase would have been over long ago, and we all could have avoided the sturm and drang that transpired.

There is a field of study and real world practical applications that is about systems (social systems) that are counterintuitive. A simple example is the city that decides drugs cause crime, so they crack down on drugs and limit the supply reaching the city. What happens? Crime goes up dramatically. Why? With limited supply, the price of drugs goes up. With drugs being more costly, the addicted population resorts to more burglaries and robberies and car jackings to obtain the extra money they need to feed their habit.

In this case, Fenn believed more and more books, stories, scrapbooks and interviews would provide hints to the solution. The onslaught of hints that you so admire only backfired on him. There were too many hints along the way, Even just with TTOTC, there may have been too many hints and too many rabbit holes.

I believe he unloaded those last 50 or so scrapbooks on us to force the issue. I believe the finder probably got his solution from those last 50 scrapbooks, and doesn't really have a poem solve unless Fenn gave it to him. So more and more hints finally pushed the balance over the edge, and you got your winner, the "hint king".

So bask in your glory, Archbishop of Hints. And TS can bask in his glory as well, whatever that might be.

No more debate from me on this topic. You two guys can have the last word. You always do.

Edit: I forgot to answer TS's question. When Fenn says many have identified the first clue, he didn't say they solved it. If many really had the correct starting point, would it have taken 10 years? I don't think so.
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06-30-2020, 12:46 AM,
#74
RE: Poem Purists are from the Devil!
That's the thing though. Whomever could avoid the Fenn drugs (massive useless hints), avoid looking at maps for faces, avoid anagramming to infinity, and look at the dynamic of the poem... could then unlock it and go to THOSE places; start checking at the higher level till it really starts only ever looking like one thing, then one place.
Reply
06-30-2020, 02:28 AM,
#75
RE: Poem Purists are from the Devil!
(06-30-2020, 12:20 AM)Beavertooth Wrote:
(06-29-2020, 09:29 PM)fundamental design Wrote: Many got tripped up on the concept if something isn’t required that that means it’s not helpful. I don’t understand why that was so tough for many searchers.

You have completely missed my point. You say the hints helped. Big whup. I say they helped one person., in your context that he crossed the finish line first. I say the hints slowed down the other 350,000 searchers, including myself, by years. The hints victimized us with time, expense, and money, and what is even worse, innumerable debates about hints, which I considered to be the biggest joke of all in the chase.

There were no true poem purists that I know of. I truly wish there had been some who had resisted the siren song of Fenn and fundy. The chase would have been over long ago, and we all could have avoided the sturm and drang that transpired.

There is a field of study and real world practical applications that is about systems (social systems) that are counterintuitive. A simple example is the city that decides drugs cause crime, so they crack down on drugs and limit the supply reaching the city. What happens? Crime goes up dramatically. Why? With limited supply, the price of drugs goes up. With drugs being more costly, the addicted population resorts to more burglaries and robberies and car jackings to obtain the extra money they need to feed their habit.

In this case, Fenn believed more and more books, stories, scrapbooks and interviews would provide hints to the solution. The onslaught of hints that you so admire only backfired on him. There were too many hints along the way, Even just with TTOTC, there may have been too many hints and too many rabbit holes.

I believe he unloaded those last 50 or so scrapbooks on us to force the issue. I believe the finder probably got his solution from those last 50 scrapbooks, and doesn't really have a poem solve unless Fenn gave it to him. So more and more hints finally pushed the balance over the edge, and you got your winner, the "hint king".

So bask in your glory, Archbishop of Hints. And TS can bask in his glory as well, whatever that might be.

No more debate from me on this topic. You two guys can have the last word. You always do.

Edit: I forgot to answer TS's question. When Fenn says many have identified the first clue, he didn't say they solved it. If many really had the correct starting point, would it have taken 10 years? I don't think so.

Great post BT, best thing I've seen you write here. I always felt you did a capable job carrying water for Fenn, and you skirt the line of sacrilege quite closely here but maybe that's why I liked the post so much. We can blame it on the post-op medications.

The chest beating over the death of Poem Purism is still premature. You would have to hear the story of the alleged finder to know exactly in what manner and to what degree the hints helped him.

I have a different theory than you on the scrapbook dump but that is for another time.
_____________________
I want this to be a fair fight. I'll shoot him in the back myself. That's the Code of the West!

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06-30-2020, 07:17 AM, (This post was last modified: 06-30-2020, 07:37 AM by Top Secret.)
#76
RE: Poem Purists are from the Devil!
(06-30-2020, 12:20 AM)Beavertooth Wrote: When Fenn says many have identified the first clue, he didn't say they solved it. If many really had the correct starting point, would it have taken 10 years? I don't think so.
I agree with the "didn't have it solved part", many had clue 1, several had 2 clues and maybe 1 had 3 or 4 clues until a few years ago. So the compounded complexity of sewing these clues together is likely the solving part that proved to be tough.

Nerver-the-less, you are fooling yourself if you think many choose a cascade named Kepler as clue 1, solved or not, it is irrational.
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06-30-2020, 07:38 AM,
#77
RE: Poem Purists are from the Devil!
(06-30-2020, 07:17 AM)Top Secret Wrote:
(06-30-2020, 12:20 AM)Beavertooth Wrote: When Fenn says many have identified the first clue, he didn't say they solved it. If many really had the correct starting point, would it have taken 10 years? I don't think so.
I agree with the solve part, many had clue 1, several had 2 clues and maybe 1 had 3 or 4 clues until a few years ago. So the compounded complexity of sewing these clues together is likely the solving part that proved to be tough.

Nerver-the-less, you are fooling yourself if you think many choose a cascade named Kepler as clue 1, solve or no solve, it is irrational.

Part of the first clue (or a hint to the first clue) is "my secret where". Many thought that meant a "weir". Until the dam thing. But even some afterward. So you need a secret weir where warm waters (Firehole River) halt. It is likely that many did email him about the weir or even a weir in general, but then ignored the pipe and cistern, and assumed the next instruction was for themselves to travel down the canyon looking for the home of Brown.

So I lied about not responding. Sue me! Smile
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06-30-2020, 07:46 AM, (This post was last modified: 06-30-2020, 08:12 AM by Top Secret.)
#78
RE: Poem Purists are from the Devil!
(06-30-2020, 07:38 AM)Beavertooth Wrote:
(06-30-2020, 07:17 AM)Top Secret Wrote:
(06-30-2020, 12:20 AM)Beavertooth Wrote: When Fenn says many have identified the first clue, he didn't say they solved it. If many really had the correct starting point, would it have taken 10 years? I don't think so.
I agree with the solve part, many had clue 1, several had 2 clues and maybe 1 had 3 or 4 clues until a few years ago. So the compounded complexity of sewing these clues together is likely the solving part that proved to be tough.

Nerver-the-less, you are fooling yourself if you think many choose a cascade named Kepler as clue 1, solve or no solve, it is irrational.

Part of the first clue (or a hint to the first clue) is "my secret where". Many thought that meant a "weir". Until the dam thing. But even some afterward. So you need a secret weir where warm waters (Firehole River) halt. It is likely that many did email him about the weir or even a weir in general, but then ignored the pipe and cistern, and assumed the next instruction was for themselves to travel down the canyon looking for the home of Brown.

So I lied about not responding. Sue me! Smile
Do me a fav. In a few months when you get over this and maybe more info is released please come back and read your irrational drivel. then you will see what we all are seeing. This makes no sense. Simplify as Fenn said. Clue 1 is straightforward. With that said, pure poem purists wouldn't be able to follow Fenn's advise since the instructions to "simplify" are not in the poem!
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06-30-2020, 09:10 AM, (This post was last modified: 06-30-2020, 09:15 AM by Top Secret.)
#79
RE: Poem Purists are from the Devil!
Laugh of the day. Gotta love those crazy poem purists for supplying these goodies.

" I also confirmed that he [Mr. Finder] used the clues in the poem and hints in the Memoir to locate and find the Chest. Clues in the poem and hints in the Memoir, so yes a clear distinct difference to where the clues and hints were located. I see that I was right about that as well. I wonder what else I was right about. Thanks for the confirmation Forrest!"
~Seannm aka Flipperside

Has this delusional idiot gone off the deep end? Remember this is same moron who burned Fenn's memoir TTOTC on Fenntube in defiance of anything but the poem and then he went on to arrogantly chastise those who dared use the memoir or anything else other than the poem in finding the treasure. How many condescending Fenntube and forum posts were we painfully subjected to by Seannm during this chase?

I realize some treasure hunters would be stuck in the denial stages of recovery, but it appears the Poem Purists are stuck in an endless loop. I wonder when he was lecturing us all on the "evolution of a poem purist" if he ever looked up the definition of "pure?"

What Seannm at least admits the poem focused (me) had it right. I have stated since day one, that the Poem is the guide and has priority since it has the clues all other information/hints builds confidence.
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06-30-2020, 10:31 AM,
#80
RE: Poem Purists are from the Devil!
(06-30-2020, 07:17 AM)Top Secret Wrote:
(06-30-2020, 12:20 AM)Beavertooth Wrote: When Fenn says many have identified the first clue, he didn't say they solved it. If many really had the correct starting point, would it have taken 10 years? I don't think so.
I agree with the "didn't have it solved part", many had clue 1, several had 2 clues and maybe 1 had 3 or 4 clues until a few years ago. So the compounded complexity of sewing these clues together is likely the solving part that proved to be tough.

Nerver-the-less, you are fooling yourself if you think many choose a cascade named Kepler as clue 1, solved or not, it is irrational.

I never got Keplar. I got Mendeleev.
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