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Two code type things
04-23-2016, 12:15 AM,
#11
RE: Two code type things
(04-22-2016, 01:48 AM)ThrillChaser Wrote:
(04-22-2016, 12:17 AM)Chmaanta Wrote: I simply put the poem in Excel, one letter per cell. Then I moved columns of letters up and down to spell out different words. I would be happy to post pictures of many things, but I would have to install the app and that's not interesting to me.

Additional things I could spell were "John H.I. Morse", the commander of his rescue mission. You can find "Lillie Fenn" both directions, but "William Fenn" is only found if spelled backwards. "Earhart" is found both directions, but "Amelia Earhart" can only be found backwards. "Meriwether Lewis" can be found backwards. Names that I was looking for, but could not find are "Jamerson, Maples, Orville Wright, Lindbergh, Skippy, June, and Peggy".

Examples of words that could lead you to think you're onto something are "Ans. Key" in the first six columns when you spell "Reese AFB" (in Lubbock) backwards. Spelling Meriwether Lewis gives you words such as "saying", "lives", and "nest" and that's with trying just one combination of letters within the columns that have multiple options. So it's easy to see why even if this was "real" that you would need to know how to turn the wheels to the right locations and which parts of the wheel to read off and in what order.

My ultimate goal is to provide insight as clearly as possible with no ambiguity. Collaboration would be great, as any insights might help push the hunt forward.

P.S. Besides the Vignere cipher that Jefferson re-invented and asked Lewis to use, Jefferson also made a wheel cipher. Kind of interesting what that guy did with his free time.

Other vertical words using the same logic as "HORN" are "Beat Oaf", "dad", "hit", "kin", "ten", "has odd", "tone", "lee", "way", "crop", "fen dad", "is me", and "ant" among others. You can spell "frog" if you wrap around on the 7th column. As always, it's hard to say that there is definitely something or it's just a coincidence.

Thanks for those additional details. I don't consider 3 or 4 letter words in isolation (without a lot of other corroborating 3 or 4 letter words) particularly interesting, but that's just my intuition, I haven't done the math.

I did do some simple letter frequency analysis of the poem, which I think is directly related to the work you're doing, I'll share the table here:
Code:
'p' : 6  0.99668  1.9290  0.51668
's' : 24  3.9867  6.3270  0.63011
'c' : 12  1.9934  2.7820  0.71653
'm' : 11  1.8272  2.4060  0.75943
'h' : 31  5.1495  6.0940  0.84501
'i' : 36  5.9801  6.9660  0.85847
'f' : 12  1.9934  2.2280  0.89470
'g' : 11  1.8272  2.0150  0.90680
't' : 53  8.8040  9.0560  0.97217
'a' : 49  8.1395  8.1670  0.99663
'r' : 36  5.9801  5.9870  0.99885
'n' : 41  6.8106  6.7490  1.0091
'u' : 17  2.8239  2.7580  1.0239
'e' : 82  13.621  12.702  1.0724
'd' : 28  4.6512  4.2530  1.0936
'o' : 50  8.3056  7.5070  1.1064
'l' : 27  4.4850  4.0250  1.1143
'b' : 11  1.8272  1.4920  1.2247
'y' : 15  2.4917  1.9740  1.2623
'w' : 23  3.8206  2.3600  1.6189
'v' : 10  1.6611  0.97800  1.6985
'j' : 2  0.33223  0.15300  2.1714 +++
'k' : 11  1.8272  0.77200  2.3668 +++
'q' : 2  0.33223  0.095000  3.4972 +++
'z' : 2  0.33223  0.034000  9.7715 +++
Total: 602, Vowels: 38%
The table row values are "letter", "count", "actual frequency (as %)", "expected frequency (as %, in standard English)", "difference (as multiplier)".

For example, first row: There are 6 letter 'p' in the poem, constituting just under 1% (about 1 in 100) of total letters in the poem. The letter 'p' constitutes 1.9% (about 1 in 50) of letters in standard English. Thus only just over half (51%) of the expected frequency of letter 'p' were present in the poem.

Last row: There are 2 letter 'z' in the poem, constituting .33% (one third of one percent, or about 1 in 300) of total letters. The letter 'z' constitutes .03% (three one hundredths of one percent, or about 1 in 3000) of letters in standard English. Thus there are nearly 10x more 'z' present than expected. That might sound funny, but we expect to see (602 / 3400) = .17 or less than one fifth of a 'z' in the poem, but we find two.

Armed with this information, I would suggest you look for relevant words that contain 'z', 'q', 'k', and 'j', as they are the outliers that more that 2x exceed expected letter frequency. Presumably there is a reason for that, or was it just coincidental?

Since this board doesn't have the table plug-in; you should wrap tables in code parameters so that they maintain their conformity. Oh, look.
Some may dislike the scroll bars tho'.
-T-


“I’ve said searchers should go back to the poem so many times that I don’t want to say it again here.” -ff

“The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes.” -Sherlock Holmes
Reply
04-23-2016, 03:34 AM,
#12
RE: Two code type things
(04-22-2016, 01:48 AM)ThrillChaser Wrote:
(04-22-2016, 12:17 AM)Chmaanta Wrote: I simply put the poem in Excel, one letter per cell. Then I moved columns of letters up and down to spell out different words. I would be happy to post pictures of many things, but I would have to install the app and that's not interesting to me.

Additional things I could spell were "John H.I. Morse", the commander of his rescue mission. You can find "Lillie Fenn" both directions, but "William Fenn" is only found if spelled backwards. "Earhart" is found both directions, but "Amelia Earhart" can only be found backwards. "Meriwether Lewis" can be found backwards. Names that I was looking for, but could not find are "Jamerson, Maples, Orville Wright, Lindbergh, Skippy, June, and Peggy".

Examples of words that could lead you to think you're onto something are "Ans. Key" in the first six columns when you spell "Reese AFB" (in Lubbock) backwards. Spelling Meriwether Lewis gives you words such as "saying", "lives", and "nest" and that's with trying just one combination of letters within the columns that have multiple options. So it's easy to see why even if this was "real" that you would need to know how to turn the wheels to the right locations and which parts of the wheel to read off and in what order.

My ultimate goal is to provide insight as clearly as possible with no ambiguity. Collaboration would be great, as any insights might help push the hunt forward.

P.S. Besides the Vignere cipher that Jefferson re-invented and asked Lewis to use, Jefferson also made a wheel cipher. Kind of interesting what that guy did with his free time.

Other vertical words using the same logic as "HORN" are "Beat Oaf", "dad", "hit", "kin", "ten", "has odd", "tone", "lee", "way", "crop", "fen dad", "is me", and "ant" among others. You can spell "frog" if you wrap around on the 7th column. As always, it's hard to say that there is definitely something or it's just a coincidence.

Thanks for those additional details. I don't consider 3 or 4 letter words in isolation (without a lot of other corroborating 3 or 4 letter words) particularly interesting, but that's just my intuition, I haven't done the math.

I did do some simple letter frequency analysis of the poem, which I think is directly related to the work you're doing, I'll share the table here:

'p' : 6 0.99668 1.9290 0.51668
's' : 24 3.9867 6.3270 0.63011
'c' : 12 1.9934 2.7820 0.71653
'm' : 11 1.8272 2.4060 0.75943
'h' : 31 5.1495 6.0940 0.84501
'i' : 36 5.9801 6.9660 0.85847
'f' : 12 1.9934 2.2280 0.89470
'g' : 11 1.8272 2.0150 0.90680
't' : 53 8.8040 9.0560 0.97217
'a' : 49 8.1395 8.1670 0.99663
'r' : 36 5.9801 5.9870 0.99885
'n' : 41 6.8106 6.7490 1.0091
'u' : 17 2.8239 2.7580 1.0239
'e' : 82 13.621 12.702 1.0724
'd' : 28 4.6512 4.2530 1.0936
'o' : 50 8.3056 7.5070 1.1064
'l' : 27 4.4850 4.0250 1.1143
'b' : 11 1.8272 1.4920 1.2247
'y' : 15 2.4917 1.9740 1.2623
'w' : 23 3.8206 2.3600 1.6189
'v' : 10 1.6611 0.97800 1.6985
'j' : 2 0.33223 0.15300 2.1714 +++
'k' : 11 1.8272 0.77200 2.3668 +++
'q' : 2 0.33223 0.095000 3.4972 +++
'z' : 2 0.33223 0.034000 9.7715 +++
Total: 602, Vowels: 38%

The table row values are "letter", "count", "actual frequency (as %)", "expected frequency (as %, in standard English)", "difference (as multiplier)".

For example, first row: There are 6 letter 'p' in the poem, constituting just under 1% (about 1 in 100) of total letters in the poem. The letter 'p' constitutes 1.9% (about 1 in 50) of letters in standard English. Thus only just over half (51%) of the expected frequency of letter 'p' were present in the poem.

Last row: There are 2 letter 'z' in the poem, constituting .33% (one third of one percent, or about 1 in 300) of total letters. The letter 'z' constitutes .03% (three one hundredths of one percent, or about 1 in 3000) of letters in standard English. Thus there are nearly 10x more 'z' present than expected. That might sound funny, but we expect to see (602 / 3400) = .17 or less than one fifth of a 'z' in the poem, but we find two.

Armed with this information, I would suggest you look for relevant words that contain 'z', 'q', 'k', and 'j', as they are the outliers that more that 2x exceed expected letter frequency. Presumably there is a reason for that, or was it just coincidental?

I think your frequency is off for z. The value in the wikipedia table is about .0007 and I think it is pretty close to "correct."

The presence of two z's or no x's or anything else is not particularly significant. The odds of getting two z's in 600 characters is about 6 1/2% so it is not particularly rare to get that many. The odds of getting 23 w's and 24 s's are both about a half percent. They are much less probable than the 2 z's. There are too many w's and not enough s's. If you run your code on a bunch of poems of similar length you won't find that getting too many w's and too few s's is particularly rare. Fluctuations happen.
Reply
04-23-2016, 12:03 PM,
#13
RE: Two code type things
Thanks for both your comments. I knew about [code] but I wasn't thinking about it at the time, so thanks for the reminder.

Thanks also Sheriff John Brown for pointing out the error with my 'z' frequency. It looks like I did copy the table from Wikipedia, as I just wanted some "good enough" numbers to work with, and I must have made an error somewhere in copy/paste/format in an editor.

Thanks also for the odds on w's and s's. I knew my "multiplier" column wasn't really the number I wanted, and I knew there had to be something more useful, but I never made the cognitive leap, or perhaps I just didn't feel like I had the math chops, to calculate the probability of an individual letter frequency. But now it seems like basically the same math as the Independence Day stuff I did, which is relatively straightforward.

I wonder if it's possible to calculate the odds that the refrain from a Bob Marley song, split up into 2 or 3 word sections, would occur in a 28,800 word book. Although I'm guessing Boss Fenn preferred the Eric Clapton cover, and that's the version that made Billboard #1 anyway.
Reply
04-24-2016, 01:01 PM,
#14
RE: Two code type things
Moved by request from "Why anagrams don't work" thread.

This was post # 62. It follows the HORN mentioned previously in the (Chmaanta's) thread.

(04-24-2016, 06:03 AM)astree Wrote:
(04-24-2016, 02:22 AM)Chris Yates Wrote: Some searchers overrate the complexity of the search. Knowing about head pressures, foot pounds, acre feet, bible verses, Latin, cubic inches, icons, fonts, charts, graphs, formulas, curved lines, magnetic variation, codes, depth meters, riddles, drones or ciphers, will not assist anyone to the treasure location, although those things have been offered as positive solutions. Excellent research materials are TTOTC, Google Earth, and/or a good map.f

Forrest is funny because in this SB62 where he implies that codes wont help you, imo, he put in a coded message

im a little surprised that Astree hasnt already mentioned it

roughly translated it says, next time you go searching for the treasure please stay at the skeleton hotel

Chris,

The most blatant that I've found in the Scrapbook 62 is "X" (EKS) - that's been mentioned several times. I think there is a 62, which contrasts the 26, and some others. I'd be interested to see how you found the paraphrase, unless you don't want to give away the technique. Did you relate it to the multiple BENO / BONE in the poem?

To seque off the EKS, a question to Chmaanta - You also found the HORN, and know of the HORN on Forrest's homepage ( http://www.oldsantafetradingco.com ). The horns touch the ART letters, and quite a bit.

Returning to the poem, the acrostic of "Hint Of Riches New" (HORN) is found in the same verse as the 20th letter HORN.

I don't know how (if) you are scoring your finds, but does this increase it's value, that it occurs twice in the poem and once in Forrest's main page website?
.
=====

DON’T RESEARCH...THINK!!!

https://www.allmovie.com/movie/v46056

WP (stock symbol)
.
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