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Some points to ponder....
07-28-2016, 08:33 AM, (This post was last modified: 08-06-2016, 06:29 PM by TwoCrows.)
#1
Some points to ponder....
There are a few dreams in this life that we all have in common as humans. Finding a chest full of gold and jewels is one of them. In the case of Forrest Fenn's treasure we are quickly led to believe that we have the chance to fulfill this childhood dream. We read his autobiography and are convinced this all American Hero would never lie to us. From there we immediately start studying the poem, a poem so vague you could make it work in your own backyard. Once we think we are on to solving this riddle we start chasing that golden carrot. Most of us fizzle out pretty quickly, some get pretty engrossed. In my case, that involved one full year, 5,000 miles traveled, too much money and all to no avail.

At some point you except you will look no more, you gave it your best shot. It's not sour grapes, I am not claiming that if I didn't find it at my location then it must not exist. However, having failed and given up, you are able to end the "tunnel vision, golden carrot chasing", step back and take a look at the entire journey with a different eye. Along the way if you have gotten as involved as I have, you know a whole lot more about Forrest Fenn, having digested all his words, interviews, his interactions with the public, his traits etc... In my case, the first thing I noticed was that this man, a photo hound if there ever was one, showed us photos in his books to back-up every claim he ever made...Boyhood fishing, Horseback trips, Air force days, Art and artifacts, etc, etc... Everything he claimed to be and had done he was able to show a photo of, EXCEPT his greatest venture yet...Not a single photo exists with him together with his treasure!! It's called...Provenance. (A record of ownership of a work of art or antique, used as a guide to authenticity or quality.) Mr. Fenn knows all about this. One of FF's most prized possessions is that of a peace pipe once possessed by the Indian chief Sitting Bull. FF discusses in depth, in an article, the authenticity of the pipe, which is solely based on a photo of Sitting Bull holding the same pipe. We can only be left to wonder why FF did not offer us the same courtesy with his treasure?

Forrest Fenn when asked about his treasure photos, said: "that chest was placed on a small stool in my photographer's studio. I thought it was an apt prop from which to launch the thrill of the chase. We messed around for a long time with lighting and rearranging the gold coins and nuggets. He must have taken 50 photos but when I got home he sent me only three. He said he picked out the best ones and deleted the others. f" Let's analyze this statement...Just so happens that my father was a professional photographer. If these are the best 3 photos out of 50, he needs a new "guy". They are of poor quality at best for a professional shoot. No photographer would have let this session go by without insisting Forrest Fenn be in the shots. (certainly not a hard sell in FF's case?) Basic photography 101..."Include a human subject whenever possible". Also, no photographer would pick out the photos for you and he would absolutely NOT delete anything. The fact that FF made a point of saying "these are the only 3 he received and the photographer deleted the rest", is suspicious in that it seems he is covering for the lack of photos and shutting down future questions on this topic. No way this man, FF, made millions selling art and artifacts using photos like this to sell his wares. Are we to believe that this man, the great salesman that he is, had this treasure in his possession knowing he was going to promote the treasure hunt worldwide neglected to take publicity photos of him with his treasure? His Legacy no less? So what are these photos exactly? They are photos of a chest and gold, this is true. But they are just photos. If FF could have rented a treasure for a day, without the risk of being exposed by someone later, he likely would have. It's my opinion that Forrest Fenn using his vast art and artifact connections, came into possession of these photos which he knows cannot or will not be traced or connected to another source. This is why he has these and only these photos and was quick to claim the other 47 photos were conveniently deleted. It also might explain the odd background of nothingness and blackness, which I feel was cropped out to eliminate any background objects that might reveal its true origin.

He admits early on, his reason behind all of this was to build himself a Legacy in hopes that his name will live on forever. Is it not a conflict of interest if one is building a long term legacy, to hide a treasure that could be found tomorrow? And if it was found, how long would his legacy last? Not long. Would it not make more sense to have a treasure hunt with no actual treasure to be found thereby ensuring your on-going legacy with a never ending hunt?

There are many more red flags. Keep in mind Forrest Fenn never planned on living this long and by yammering on all these years he has made so many amendments as to how the treasure has been hidden, it's almost impossible for it not to have already been found. Fenn says it's not in a dangerous place. An 80 year old man can get to it. A 3 year old could get to it with only a little help. You can see the treasure within 12 feet of it. It's a place you would take your family. Imagine how hard it would be to hide something, as he says, could remain hidden for "a thousand years" with these conditions attached.

The man in various interviews in past years has made some rather suspicious statements. In one interview he says he MAY have put an unsigned check for a large sum of money in the chest, but couldn't later remember if he did. Who wouldn't remember this? This comment was made to try and answer the question, "How will we know if someone finds the treasure...what will make the finder come forward"? This little tidbit has gotten him in some trouble over the years. (remember he didn't think he would live this long) Many people are asking if it's worth hunting for a treasure, when he can offer no proof it is still out there to be found? Roughly 3 years in he admitted he hadn't been back to the treasure site, wouldn't be able get back and had no way of knowing for sure if someone had found it. He seems to have since realized this is an issue with searchers, so now he says confidently, "I know the treasure to exist, but don't ask me how I know". For those of us who still believe this all American Hero would never lie to us, this is all you need to hear. For others who are starting to have doubts, this statement is yet another waving red flag.

Think about it, Forrest Fenn decided on his own at some point that his life's story was worthy of a book. No one asked him to write his autobiography. Usually such books are written out of demand and interest from the general public. By all accounts Mr Fenn led a very interesting full life, but by no means so outstanding as to warrant a book. He likely understood this and provided the lure of gold and riches to inspire people to read his life story and he suggests it often. By all rights the treasure hunt did not need to be interwoven with his life story. This is a choice he made. He was also smart enough not to take profit from the book sales as this would no doubt raise questions about his motives. Remember, he is financially positioned at his age not to need the money. He is not looking for fortune, it's fame he craves.

The inspiration for me to sit down and write all this was the recent disappearance of Randy Bilyeu. He was searching for the treasure along the Rio Grande here in New Mexico. When his disappearance was first reported, Forrest Fenn was quick to lead a search by air. Admirable as this appeared at first, my feelings descended when Mr. Fenn appeared shortly after, dressed in his best duds and crisp cowboy hat, helicopter idling in the background, looking all the part of a Super Hero on a nationwide tabloid TV news program. In addition to discussing Randy's disappearance, Forrest Fenn's name was mentioned along with his treasure hunt and book....Cheesy indeed. And it appeared to me that his interest in the search ended when the camera lights flickered out.

Risk is a part of everyday life. How many young people die in accidents and situations every year while they are chasing their dream of becoming a hollywood star or country singer. I wouldn't want to stop anyone from chasing their dream and no doubt Randy himself was thrilled to have a chance to chase his. The real tragedy here would be if Randy and all of us hunters for that matter are chasing a hoax. This is meant for those of you who may already have some doubts. Before you start chasing that golden carrot too far, take a few moments and think about this. It may save you a lot of time, money, and who knows...perhaps your life!
Reply
07-28-2016, 09:14 AM, (This post was last modified: 07-28-2016, 09:15 AM by DaisyMae.)
#2
RE: Some points to ponder....
Welcome TwoCrows!
I saw your post on the other site and shared it with several folks.
Reply
07-28-2016, 09:48 AM, (This post was last modified: 07-28-2016, 09:49 AM by romeofoxtrot.)
#3
RE: Some points to ponder....
(07-28-2016, 08:33 AM)TwoCrows Wrote: There are a few dreams in this life that we all have in common as humans. Finding a chest full of gold and jewels is one of them. In the case of Forrest Fenn's treasure we are quickly led to believe that we have the chance to fulfill this childhood dream. We read his autobiography and are convinced this all American Hero would never lie to us. From there we immediately start studying the poem, a poem so vague you could make it work in your own backyard. Once we think we are on to solving this riddle we start chasing that golden carrot. Most of us fizzle out pretty quickly, some get pretty engrossed. In my case, that involved one full year, 5,000 miles traveled, too much money and all to no avail.

At some point you except you will look no more, you gave it your best shot. It's not sour grapes, I am not claiming that if I didn't find it at my location then it must not exist. However, having failed and given up, you are able to end the "tunnel vision, golden carrot chasing", step back and take a look at the entire journey with a different eye. Along the way if you have gotten as involved as I have, you know a whole lot more about Forrest Fenn, having digested all his words, interviews, his interactions with the public, his traits etc... In my case, the first thing I noticed was that this man, a photo hound if there ever was one, showed us photos in his books to back-up every claim he ever made...Boyhood fishing, Horseback trips, Air force days, Art and artifacts, etc, etc... Everything he claimed to be and had done he was able to show a photo of, EXCEPT his greatest venture yet...Not a single photo exists with him together with his treasure!! It's called...Provenance. (A record of ownership of a work of art or antique, used as a guide to authenticity or quality.) Mr. Fenn knows all about this. One of FF's most prized possessions is that of a peace pipe once possessed by the Indian chief Sitting Bull. FF discusses in depth, in an article, the authenticity of the pipe, which is solely based on a photo of Sitting Bull holding the same pipe. We can only be left to wonder why FF did not offer us the same courtesy with his treasure?

Forrest Fenn when asked about his treasure photos, said: "that chest was placed on a small stool in my photographer's studio. I thought it was an apt prop from which to launch the thrill of the chase. We messed around for a long time with lighting and rearranging the gold coins and nuggets. He must have taken 50 photos but when I got home he sent me only three. He said he picked out the best ones and deleted the others. f" Let's analyze this statement...Just so happens that my father was a professional photographer. If these are the best 3 photos out of 50, he needs a new "guy". They are of poor quality at best for a professional shoot. No photographer would have let this session go by without insisting Forrest Fenn be in the shots. (certainly not a hard sell in FF's case?) Basic photography 101..."Include a human subject whenever possible". Also, no photographer would pick out the photos for you and he would absolutely NOT delete anything. The fact that FF made a point of saying "these are the only 3 he received and the photographer deleted the rest", is suspicious in that it seems he is covering for the lack of photos and shutting down future questions on this topic. No way this man, FF, made millions selling art and artifacts using photos like this to sell his wares. Are we to believe that this man, the great salesman that he is, had this treasure in his possession knowing he was going to promote the treasure hunt worldwide neglected to take publicity photos of him with his treasure? His Legacy no less? So what are these photos exactly? They are photos of a chest and gold, this is true. But they are just photos. If FF could have rented a treasure for a day, without the risk of being exposed by someone later, he likely would have. It's my opinion that Forrest Fenn using his vast art and artifact connections, came into possession of these photos which he knows cannot or will not be traced or connected to another source. This is why he has these and only these photos and was quick to claim the other 47 photos were conveniently deleted. It also might explain the odd background of nothingness and blackness, which I feel was cropped out to eliminate any background objects that might reveal its true origin.

He admits early on, his reason behind all of this was to build himself a Legacy in hopes that his name will live on forever. Is it not a conflict of interest if one is building a long term legacy, to hide a treasure that could be found tomorrow? And if it was found, how long would his legacy last? Not long. Would it not make more sense to have a treasure hunt with no actual treasure to be found thereby ensuring your on-going legacy with a never ending hunt?

There are many more red flags. Keep in mind Forrest Fenn never planned on living this long and by yammering on all these years he has made so many amendments as to how the treasure has been hidden, it's almost impossible for it not to have already been found. Fenn says it's not in a dangerous place. An 80 year old man can get to it. A 3 year old could get to it with only a little help. You can see the blaze marking the treasure within 12 feet of it. It's a place you would take your family. Imagine how hard it would be to hide something, as he says, could remain hidden for "a thousand years" with these conditions attached.

The man in various interviews in past years has made some rather suspicious statements. In one interview he says he MAY have put an unsigned check for a large sum of money in the chest, but couldn't later remember if he did. Who wouldn't remember this? This comment was made to try and answer the question, "How will we know if someone finds the treasure...what will make the finder come forward"? This little tidbit has gotten him in some trouble over the years. (remember he didn't think he would live this long) Many people are asking if it's worth hunting for a treasure, when he can offer no proof it is still out there to be found? Roughly 3 years in he admitted he hadn't been back to the treasure site, wouldn't be able get back and had no way of knowing for sure if someone had found it. He seems to have since realized this is an issue with searchers, so now he says confidently, "I know the treasure to exist, but don't ask me how I know". For those of us who still believe this all American Hero would never lie to us, this is all you need to hear. For others who are starting to have doubts, this statement is yet another waving red flag.

Think about it, Forrest Fenn decided on his own at some point that his life's story was worthy of a book. No one asked him to write his autobiography. Usually such books are written out of demand and interest from the general public. By all accounts Mr Fenn led a very interesting full life, but by no means so outstanding as to warrant a book. He likely understood this and provided the lure of gold and riches to inspire people to read his life story and he suggests it often. By all rights the treasure hunt did not need to be interwoven with his life story. This is a choice he made. He was also smart enough not to take profit from the book sales as this would no doubt raise questions about his motives. Remember, he is financially positioned at his age not to need the money. He is not looking for fortune, it's fame he craves.

The inspiration for me to sit down and write all this was the recent disappearance of Randy Bilyeu. He was searching for the treasure along the Rio Grande here in New Mexico. When his disappearance was first reported, Forrest Fenn was quick to lead a search by air. Admirable as this appeared at first, my feelings descended when Mr. Fenn appeared shortly after, dressed in his best duds and crisp cowboy hat, helicopter idling in the background, looking all the part of a Super Hero on a nationwide tabloid TV news program. In addition to discussing Randy's disappearance, Forrest Fenn's name was mentioned along with his treasure hunt and book....Cheesy indeed. And it appeared to me that his interest in the search ended when the camera lights flickered out.

Risk is a part of everyday life. How many young people die in accidents and situations every year while they are chasing their dream of becoming a hollywood star or country singer. I wouldn't want to stop anyone from chasing their dream and no doubt Randy himself was thrilled to have a chance to chase his. The real tragedy here would be if Randy and all of us hunters for that matter are chasing a hoax. This is meant for those of you who may already have some doubts. Before you start chasing that golden carrot too far, take a few moments and think about this. It may save you a lot of time, money, and who knows...perhaps your life!
Well put. A reality check, after Randys CONFIRMED passing, is in order. Do this for fun, dont do it with an actual expectation other than that. The only reason Randy is dead, is because he had greater expectations, and risked(and gave) his life for those expectations. Do NOT listen to Fenn. An average man, a redneck with 12 kids, a 3 year old, etc etc etc is highly highly unlikely to find this. Dont risk your life. Regardless of what you may read.
Reply
07-28-2016, 06:43 PM, (This post was last modified: 07-28-2016, 06:58 PM by Jack.)
#4
RE: Some points to ponder....
Two Crows - excellent post and the idea of provenance with regards to the lack of photo of Fenn with the chest is interesting and worth considering. As you stated Fenn, being an archeologist and art dealer certainly is aware of it. And he has stated he thought of everything. So why is there no photo of him and the chest together establishing provenance? Allow me to throw out a theory for the sake of discussion.

What if the photo was actually taken and does exist? What if it is hidden in the chest or with the chest? Certainly the photo SHOULD exist given Forrest's background. His explanation of why it doesn't is pretty lame as you point out. Is he being secretive like JD Salinger who hid his writing so it wouldn't be published? Suppose the chest is found 100 years from now. Forrest and the rest of us are long gone from this world. The finder knows of the poem that says "I give you title to the gold" but really has no proof that this is in fact Forrest's chest of gold. Unless he can provide a photo of Forrest with the chest. Well guess what? he does happen to have the photo he needs!

An interesting note on provenance as it relates to archeology (from Wikipedia):

It has been argued that in archaeology (North American archaeology and anthropological archaeology throughout the world), when the US spelling provenience is used it has a related but subtly different sense to provenance. Archaeological researchers use provenience to refer to the three-dimensional location or find spot of an artifact or feature within an archaeological site,[2] whereas provenance covers an object's complete documented history. Ideally, in modern excavations, the provenience or find spot is recorded (even videoed) with great precision, but in older cases only the general site or approximate area may be known, especially when an artifact was found outside a professional excavation and its specific position not recorded. Any given antiquity may therefore have both a provenience (where it was found) and a provenance (where it has been since it was found). In some cases, especially where there is an inscription, the provenance may include a history that predates its burial in the ground, as well as those relating to its history after rediscovery.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provenance

Wouldn't it be cool if the poem actually led to a photo of Fenn holding the chest and the back of the photo had a map with a big X which was missing from the poem leading to his "secret where"? Ok my imagination is working overtime.
Reply
07-28-2016, 08:55 PM,
#5
RE: Some points to ponder....
Before I started searching for Fenn's treasure, I was searching for this:

Leon Trabuco’s Gold - A Mexican businessman buries 16 tons of gold in the New Mexico desert and then dies before telling anyone where it is.

So, if I ever get hurt looking for Leon's gold, who should I blame? Maybe I should bring legal action against Leon's descendants and demand proof that the 16 tons of gold exists?
Reply
07-28-2016, 09:01 PM,
#6
RE: Some points to ponder....
You can always count on people to think that a person with money is a person they can sue or that they can black mail. Its become obvious that some people are just looking for an easy street.
Shhh they aren't listening.
Reply
07-28-2016, 10:51 PM,
#7
RE: Some points to ponder....
TwoCrows
Well written; well said. I totally agree with your assessment. Thanks for posting your thoughts.


Dark necessities are part of my design.
Reply
07-28-2016, 10:53 PM,
#8
RE: Some points to ponder....
(07-28-2016, 08:55 PM)Milan Wrote: Before I started searching for Fenn's treasure, I was searching for this:

Leon Trabuco’s Gold - A Mexican businessman buries 16 tons of gold in the New Mexico desert and then dies before telling anyone where it is.

So, if I ever get hurt looking for Leon's gold, who should I blame? Maybe I should bring legal action against Leon's descendants and demand proof that the 16 tons of gold exists?
Milan,

I reside in the Four Corners area and have done a bit or research on the Trabuco legend. We should talk some time. Did you already remove a ton?

Seannm
Reply
07-28-2016, 11:38 PM,
#9
RE: Some points to ponder....
TwoCrows,

Nice write up. Very articulate and well done.

Well, Forrest Fenn's friend Douglas Preston, who is an American author of techno-thriller and horror novels and who worked several years in the American Museum of Natural History in New York City, ..........said he SAW THE CHEST and its contents in ff's vault before it was hidden. And weren't there a couple of others?

So unless he saw something different than what is in that picture or he is lying, then what's the explanation for that?

*******************************************************************
"But I'm tryin', Ringo. I'm tryin' real hard to be the shepherd." - Jules Winnfield
Reply
07-28-2016, 11:41 PM, (This post was last modified: 07-28-2016, 11:52 PM by Gordon Lightfoot.)
#10
RE: Some points to ponder....
Sounds like sour grapes to me. Just because you couldn't find it, don't ruin it for everyone else. No one is forcing you to look for the damn chest, that's totally on you. On my first run I saw my beautiful America, that alone was worth the thousand bucks I spent on the trip. You are calling Mr. Fenn a liar and saying that he is stringing us all along.....let's face it, you just couldn't figure out the damn thing...so instead of calling the man a liar just because you blew your wad on a solve that didn't pan out. Just take it like a man, and call it quits.... My second time out is my last time out...no more. And, I'm man enough to own it if I don't find it. Bow out gracefully.
Reply


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